Agenda item

The Convener advised that three deputations had been requested in relation to item 10.5 on the agenda (Denominational Primary Schools) – from Elizabeth Spencer, Anthony Steppie and JJ Welsh.

The Committee firstly heard from Elizabeth Spencer, who thanked Members for the opportunity to speak on behalf of all Catholics in Aberdeen, as well as for minorities in the city.  She advised that she currently headed a social enterprise called Aberdeen Ethnic Minority Women’s Group and had been working as a community researcher in Aberdeen for the past two years.  She explained that her daughter attended St Joseph’s RC School and so the denominational school feasibility study had been close to her heart.  Ms Spencer stated that she had started a petition online for the need for a secondary Catholic school as well as for more funding for more primary Catholic schools in Aberdeen. She explained that she found it very difficult to send her daughter to a school which was 1.7 miles away, and therefore she would like there to be more primary Catholic schools in the city, noting that she would therefore also like her daughter to attend a Catholic secondary school when the time came. 

She added that in Scotland, Aberdeen was the only city without a Catholic secondary school, and despite staying in the city for 13 years, she did not understand why that was the case.  She noted that it might have been because there was not much need for one a decade earlier, but due to an influx of migration, students and migrant communities, there were now almost 140 nationalities in Aberdeen.  Due to the research she had undertaken over the past two years with migrant communities, minorities and religious minorities, she had found a gap in the need for a secondary Catholic school, which had become the basis of her petition.  She added that she hoped everyone would be supporting positive action for minorities, given the recent spate of race riots in the UK, noting that Aberdeen needed to show solidarity towards minorities, and the religious minorities in the city.  Identifying funding to start the first secondary Catholic school in the city would show that solidarity from a city which she noted was welcoming to migrants, oil workers, international students and international minorities.  She felt that this would show that Aberdeen cared about their needs, and concluded by stating that a secondary Catholic school was really needed and she called on all present to help make the dream a reality.

The Committee then heard from Anthony Steppie, chair of Holy Family RC School Parent Council.  Mr Steppie thanked the Committee for letting him speak, and advised that both the Parent Council and the school were very much against any faith school either closing or merging with another.  However, he stated that he was in attendance to talk about Holy Family.  He noted that it was a special school which had been in the city for a long time and had taught many citizens in Aberdeen.  He advised that his two children attended Holy Family School, despite the fact they stayed in Mastrick and there were five schools in closer proximity.  He explained that he chose to put his children there because he was a person of faith, but also because of the education they received.  He stated that the education, such as Maths, English, Geography etc was good, as was the moral education, and he was very glad to see that had been acknowledged in the report.  However he noted that it was more than the moral education, it was the way the children were taught about fellow human beings.  It was how they were taught tolerance, empathy, how to treat each other, how to have self respect and how to have respect for other people.   He added that in this day and age, that was something to be cherished, and the children at the school were happier.  He stated that they did not want their school going anywhere.  He had been involved in the school for a long time and it had only got better over the years.  Mr Steppie invited Members to come to the school and see how happy the children there were.  He added that Aberdeen was a great place to live and a brilliant place to bring up children.   He concluded by highlighting the statement at the end of Holy Family School’s newsletters, that they were a small school with a big heart.

Finally, the Committee heard from JJ Welsh, who advised that he was addressing Committee on behalf of St Joseph’s RC School, the parents and the Parent Council.  He added that his former guidance teacher had told him “Save our schools, because, after all, without good education, the future is lost”.  He explained that as a collective parents’ group across the three denominational schools, they were disappointed with the feasibility study and how it had been put together.   He added that it had been difficult to view the consultation on a phone and see what it was actually about. 

He noted that it was important to get the facts correct, and he was pleased to see that the report highlighted the mistakes and the errors that were made, that there were some communication issues and that there were some things that were out of date.  He advised that parents had been concerned over the Summer period as to whether or not their children would have a school to go to, and he felt this was very unfair.  He considered that the way the consultation had been put together had created that concern, when there was no need for it to happen.  He felt that if there had been better engagement with the community in general and in the three schools, the wording of the feasibility study could have been changed to alleviate a lot of the concerns, and he believed there was a lesson to be learned from that by the schools and by the Council.  

He explained that there was a multi-ethnic community of pupils at all denominational schools in Aberdeen.  He added that there was a perception that those with a baptism certificate would be given places first, but it was important to realise that the facts showed a different picture.  The number of Roman Catholic children at St Joseph’s RC School was around 50/50, based on current numbers available, and he added that it was important to get that information across.  Many people from different places had chosen to put their children to a faith-based school, no matter their own religion, because they believed in the interests of their child and what they felt they would get from the school.  He added that it was also important to highlight that the catchment area for the denominational schools was west of Peterculter and south of Portlethen, which meant it extended into Aberdeenshire, but Aberdeenshire did not have any Roman Catholic primary schools.  Therefore there were parents who drove from Stonehaven each day to take their children to school as they were outwith the area.  Some parents could not afford to do this.  Mr Welsh added that this highlighted the importance of denominational schools and for people to have a choice and for it to be available for them. 

He added that consideration also needed to be given to the new housing developments in the areas he had mentioned, and whether the Council was giving any consideration to other faiths and other areas where new families might move.  He asked if the Council was saying it should be reducing the number of schools that were available to people who were moving to the area.  He did not believe this was right in any shape or form in the modern world and in a modern Scotland.  He added that there was an argument potentially that there was a need for more denominational schools, not less.

Mr Welsh stated that there was no Catholic secondary school in Aberdeen, however there were 19,000 registered Catholics, not including those in Aberdeenshire.  He explained that many parents were put off moving to Aberdeen by the lack of a secondary school.  He noted that Dundee had an equivalent Catholic population to Aberdeen, but it had 12 Catholic primary schools and there was no intention at this time for any of them to be closed.  Mr Welsh stated that the schools had a feeling of community, and enhanced, improved and maintained a mixed ethnic community.  It was not just a school – it was about the future that Scotland should have. 

Mr Welsh explained that St Joseph’s RC School was an excellent school.  He had two boys in Primary 1 and 3 at the school.  He added that although he was biased, this was supported by the recent inspectorate report of the school which highlighted that children’s overall attainment was consistently above the local and national expectations to maintain high levels of literacy and numeracy over time.  This had been an ongoing position and the Head Teacher had been given special mention for her highly effective leadership.

Mr Welsh added that the school was at bursting point and only the day before, another three children had joined.  He noted that he asked the Head Teacher where there were spaces for these children, adding that there should not be more than 25 children in Primary 1 classes, and so if the school had over 434 children, was the Council saying it was acceptable that there should be 32 pupils in a class.  He added that it was a Victorian building and the classrooms were not built to have that number.  In some areas, class sizes had to be reduced to fit children in, and in others, numbers had to be increased. 

Mr Welsh explained that the school was a listed Victorian building and there were things which needed to be done which could not wait another two years, as was set out in the report.  This would not help the children today nor in the future.  He added that this future should be invested in, and reminded the Council that when it took ownership of St Joseph’s in 2015, it had stated that it would continue to invest in the school to maintain and increase the levels of education at the school.  He said that what had actually been spent in the school since 2015 was a disgrace, and some of it had only come about because of the leaks and floods that had happened.

He added that he wanted to take the opportunity to highlight that as a Parent Council they had funds available, but due to red tape were not able to spend that money on improving the playground area.  He asked that someone sit down with the Parent Council and explain how they could overcome this to make improvements to the condition of the school, and extended an invitation to Members to visit the school.  Mr Welsh added that he could guarantee that the gymnasium at Members’ schools was probably more modern than they had at St Joseph’s.

He asked that Members did not make decisions about the school based on what they may have heard, but asked that they came to visit for themselves, as it was a very welcoming and open school.  It was important for Members to see what their decisions were doing. 

Mr Welsh concluded by saying that he was very pleased to see that the report highlighted that there was no recommendation to close any of the denominational schools. He highlighted his earlier question, that perhaps there should in fact be more.  However, he stressed that it was not helping children or their education to sit and see what happened over the next two years.  The focus should be on today’s young people, with investment in them and their education.  He understood that the Council had a very difficult decision to make in balancing budgets, but ultimately he felt that children should be put first.  He finished by stating that the Council should keep its schools, especially the good ones.

Members asked a number of questions of each deputation.

The Committee resolved:-

to thank Ms Spencer, Mr Steppie and Mr Welsh for their contributions.